Curse

Turtle222 · Dec 03, 2007, 06:57 PM // 18:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

Explain to me how that makes Lazarus evil? It means that he, maybe like all Mursaat, sees humans as inferior, like how whites felt blacks were. To Mursaat, Humans are like sheep to be herded. Judging by all their gold and posture, I'd assume the Mursaat view themselves as the superior race. We may see that as morally wrong, but it's not evil.

ok ill do it for you:

EVIL
–adjective 1. morally wrong or bad; immoral; wicked: evil deeds; an evil life.
2. harmful; injurious: evil laws.
3. characterized or accompanied by misfortune or suffering; unfortunate; disastrous: to be fallen on evil days.
4. due to actual or imputed bad conduct or character: an evil reputation.
5. marked by anger, irritability, irascibility, etc.: He is known for his evil disposition.
–noun 6. that which is evil; evil quality, intention, or conduct: to choose the lesser of two evils.
7. the force in nature that governs and gives rise to wickedness and sin.
8. the wicked or immoral part of someone or something: The evil in his nature has destroyed the good.
9. harm; mischief; misfortune: to wish one evil.
10. anything causing injury or harm: Tobacco is considered by some to be an evil.

gg

Shuuda · Dec 03, 2007, 08:01 PM // 20:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turtle222

ok ill do it for you:

EVIL
–adjective 1. morally wrong or bad; immoral; wicked: evil deeds; an evil life.
2. harmful; injurious: evil laws.
3. characterized or accompanied by misfortune or suffering; unfortunate; disastrous: to be fallen on evil days.
4. due to actual or imputed bad conduct or character: an evil reputation.
5. marked by anger, irritability, irascibility, etc.: He is known for his evil disposition.
–noun 6. that which is evil; evil quality, intention, or conduct: to choose the lesser of two evils.
7. the force in nature that governs and gives rise to wickedness and sin.
8. the wicked or immoral part of someone or something: The evil in his nature has destroyed the good.
9. harm; mischief; misfortune: to wish one evil.
10. anything causing injury or harm: Tobacco is considered by some to be an evil.

gg

And that is Lazarus? ...... Mursaat killed the chosen, and others for self survival as far as we know.
Nothing Lazarus does sounds that evil, remembering that his "brothers" are dead, by our hands, he'd not gonna give us flowers now is he?

blue.rellik · Dec 04, 2007, 03:20 AM // 03:20

It's all depends on context. The Charr, Mursaat and Kournans were all shown as evil from our perspective but really they did what they did either for their own survival or because they were lead to do so

arcanemacabre · Dec 04, 2007, 05:33 AM // 05:33

I actually thought of something that entirely invalidates all my points about 'evil.' In the context of the game and the fantasy world the story takes place in, there isn't necessarily religions set in 'beliefs,' but an actual reality. In other words, there really is magic, there are gods, and thus, there more than likely is a distinct good/evil system that governs all life in this world.

Example: Shiro. We can say that he had personal motives to his actions - revenge (he felt betrayed by his master, the emporer), fear (scared that he might die by the emporer's hand), and eventually that whole corruption of power. However, we did find out there was 'more to it,' and he was influenced at best, possessed at worst by Abaddon. If it weren't for some kind of evil, he may not have done the things he did.

I guess the only question that brings up in my mind is: Are the actions evil because of how they are perceived, or are they evil because they really do have an evil or wicked force guiding them? In GW, are people's actions guided by either the gods or evil forces?

Well, if so, then I guess it is possible to call the Mursaat evil, as long as the gods deem them so. If they oppose a divine decree, such as the Flameseeker Prophecy (assuming it is passed from the gods, and not just something Glint came up with on her own), then they are evil and must be dealt with, period. Them killing innocent humans is just icing on the cake, rather than the cake itself.

To Above: The Charr and Kournans were simply misled. They both fought for what they were led to believe was the 'right thing.' The Mursaat knew they were deliberately going against the prophecy. Whether they thought it was right or not is irrelevant because they, like the Margonites, were challenging the gods.

draxynnic · Dec 19, 2007, 02:03 AM // 02:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

Explain to me how that makes Lazarus evil? It means that he, maybe like all Mursaat, sees humans as inferior, like how whites felt blacks were. To Mursaat, Humans are like sheep to be herded. Judging by all their gold and posture, I'd assume the Mursaat view themselves as the superior race. We may see that as morally wrong, but it's not evil.

It implies that Lazarus is planning to inflict suffering on countless generations in retaliation for the events in that quest. Chances are, most of the people in those generations aren't a threat to him, so doing so isn't aiding in his own chances for survival. In fact, it actually decreases his chance for survival by increasing the chance that some hero will have enough and have a go at him.

I think causing harm to others while gaining absolutely no tangible benefit to yourself is pretty hard to not define as evil, bad, villainous (the current meaning - let's not get into an argument of semantics and the derivation of words), or some other term with a similar meaning.

Playing the devil's advocate, however, it is possible that the events of the quest has meant that Lazarus is now no longer able to do something that he'd planned to do that would prevent the 'countless generations' from suffering. However, it certainly sounds like he's threatening to enact vengeance upon innocents.

-Old 3FL- · Dec 22, 2007, 11:41 PM // 23:41

Even with this "revalation," I still feel bad for killing Hablion, he was my favorite NPC in all of GW

If only he put Gwen on the bloodstones >.<

Guildmaster Cain · Dec 23, 2007, 10:46 AM // 10:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

Explain to me how that makes Lazarus evil? It means that he, maybe like all Mursaat, sees humans as inferior, like how whites felt blacks were. To Mursaat, Humans are like sheep to be herded. Judging by all their gold and posture, I'd assume the Mursaat view themselves as the superior race. We may see that as morally wrong, but it's not evil.

I would say, any human that abuses or kills sheep just because they are inferior, are evil. Hence Lazarus = Evil.

NinjaKai · Dec 23, 2007, 11:44 AM // 11:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue.rellik

It's all depends on context. The Charr, Mursaat and Kournans were all shown as evil from our perspective but really they did what they did either for their own survival or because they were lead to do so

It's true. Evil is a human concept. The enemies we fight were other races with completely different cultures.

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Old 3FL-

Even with this "revalation," I still feel bad for killing Hablion, he was my favorite NPC in all of GW

If only he put Gwen on the bloodstones >.<

Agreed. I hate Gwen so much. I do wish she could have died Charr food. That would have been more interesting.

Eldin · Dec 26, 2007, 01:15 AM // 01:15

What is Known from Prophecies
The Mursaat were manipulating the White Mantle. In the long run it was all to stop the Flameseeker Prophecies, which would release the Titans and spell doom for their race.

In ways they're not "evil", just saving their own hides. Though the Titans would have destroyed the rest of Tyria as well, but whether the Mursaat's intentions vs the Titans was just for them or all of Tyria is debatable.

What the BMP Suggests
It is apparent the Mursaat needed pawns to aid them in preventing the Flameseeker Prophecies. The way Dorian, Hablion, and Thommis act, it would appear that it was less of a "you help us, we give you phony religion and holidays where you can strip naked" and more of a "LUL PH34R US WE KILL JOO FRIENDS".

Again, this could just be ruling by force/proving a point to enlist the Mantle.

kuhu · Dec 28, 2007, 04:39 AM // 04:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terraban

The thought itself is not evil. Thinking you are superior to others is not exactly evil. However, destroying things because you feel they are inferior is evil, for example, the KKK is pretty much considered evil.

Oh wow. We think we are superior to plants and animals and we kill them as well. OMG WE'RE ALL EVIL!